US TO MEXICO GUN TRACE???

US TO MEXICO GUN TRACE???
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Poster By Posted Date/Time
hose 'em down 24-Mar-09 - 07:30 PM ET
Leo 24-Mar-09 - 08:45 PM ET
TC 24-Mar-09 - 10:09 PM ET
221 25-Mar-09 - 02:15 AM ET
ccw1911 25-Mar-09 - 02:33 AM ET
Brian in Oregon 25-Mar-09 - 02:40 AM ET
halfmile 25-Mar-09 - 04:14 AM ET
JimmyP 25-Mar-09 - 08:42 AM ET
timberfaller 25-Mar-09 - 09:07 AM ET

Subject: US TO MEXICO GUN TRACE???
From: hose 'em down
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Date: Tue, Mar 24, 2009 - 07:30 PM ET
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Big story on US media that US sourced "legal" guns are being used by Mexican drug cartels. It's "accepted wisdom" this is true, but HOW DO THEY KNOW??? So, riddle me this: my completed 4473, after the call for NIC's check is kept in dealers files, not shipped off to some Fed office somewhere. Also, NIC check phone call records are not retained. Therefore, how does the media know these guns are from the US? The Fed's must tell them.

And who in the US manufactures "assault weapons"; or is this just a continuing slipery term of art?

Last week's trial here in Phoenix, against one gun dealer accused of making straw sales was dismissed as the Fed's charges lacked factual evidence (determined by the judge). The buyers were not "prohibited purchasers". Seems the dealer complied with all the Fed's paperwork and NIC checks. Poor choice of a case to prosecute without hard evidence, eh. It would seem to me the Fed's must have more info on this. If they had the facts, how could it have gotten dismissed? So...........how does the media know??? Lot's of cars that run folks over in Mexico come from the US, albeit all not legally.

The UZI's and AK-47's are made where?? And are they ONLY imported into the US and then sold legally to citizens AND legal alien/non-residents .....but then wind up in Mexico?? Unless a dealer's records were confiscated or audited; and the assault weapons were also confiscated (by Mexican authorities then problem resolved, no?) to obtain identification numbers, how would they know? And how is it a dealer's crime for Federal compliance??? And this dealer is the one bad apple............gimme a break. They'd have us believe only guns from the US are involved.

Uh, what's a gun smuggler or an arms dealer? Are they all US citizens? Can't be.

Remember, a straw purchase IS against the law! This media building blather is ginning up the "mob" for more rules, ala AIG.

Kidnapping is a big deal here in Phoenix but it's almost entirely confined to illegals and their coyote handlers, still not a good deal though. Sheriff Joe does a good job (majority opinion) and now the Congress is after his butt. H'mmm. Border cities are not safe places due to the violence. Me thinks drug appetites from within the US population is the cause, not the symptom.

So again, how do they know?? Limited research, perhaps by "know-nots"........they've found the cause they like and quit working the story right there. Now, on to reporting the news. G'rrrrrrrrr.

OK, I'm done. Venting is good.

Ernie

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From: Leo
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Date: Tue, Mar 24, 2009 - 08:45 PM ET
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If you think that the Feds are not retaining every single gun purchase that gets called in on the NICS, you have far more faith in the honesty of the government than I do.

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From: TC
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Date: Tue, Mar 24, 2009 - 10:09 PM ET
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Didn't know that specific ser# 's are part of the NICS check. Don't suppose anything would be coming from Venezuela, Korea, or China?

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From: 221
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 2009 - 02:15 AM ET
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Any bets on "Blackwater" being involved in this mess, in Mexico.

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From: ccw1911
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 2009 - 02:33 AM ET
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Dont think there is any conspiracy here. All the ATF has to do is contact the original maker of any firearm and they have records of where any serial numbered weapon was shipped to. If say a Remington was captured in Mexico that was shipped from Remington to a dealer in the US they would claim that as an American gun that had been smuggled into Mexico. It wouldn't really mean that it had been smuggled but I'm betting it would be counted as such even though there are probably legal ways it could have ended up in Mexico.

The real military AKs and M16s the gangs are using probably got to Mexico along with other contraband but probably not from the US, full auto stuff is too expensive and well regulated here for that. Talk about a job with a short life span, running guns to Mexican gangs? LOL but somehow us lawful US gunowners are going to get blamed.

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From: Brian in Oregon
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 2009 - 02:40 AM ET
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Whether or not the government is lying and keeping NICS information is immaterial to gun traces, at least for NEW guns.

The feds simply take the make, model and serial number, then contact the manufacturer, and follow the paperwork trail from manufacturer to distributor to dealer to original purchaser. At that point, they may contact the original purchaser to see what he (or she) did with the gun.

For USED guns, this system breaks down, because the above chain pretty much becomes unraveled as the gun starts changing hands.

If it comes back into the possession of a dealer, it may be possible to do a trace IF there is a record of the sale kept at the law enforcement level. In Oregon, the state police keep all the gun sales information. We don't used the federal NICS, we have our own, and they do record and keep all records indefinitely. In fact, the state police used to do this unlawfully, but thanks to John McCain coming here and campaigning for the gunshow "loophole" ballot initiative, we had this state police registry piggybacked onto it (and people wonder why many Oregon gun owners voted Libertarian instead of voting McCain). BTW, I had a trace come back to me for a gun used in a crime. But I was able to show I traded it in to a dealer, so the paperwork trail began again and I had no worries.

Now, as to whether the Feds are unlawfully keeping NICS information is open to debate. It may be possible to prove it, but it won't be easy. If the state or local authorities do not keep a database on gun sales, and the gun being traced is used, especially one traded in a lot, then there are only two ways it could be traced. One is via 4473 records that have been turned in to the feds (this is done when a dealer goes out of business). The other is to use the federal NICS database - which isn't supposed to exist. If it does exist, the potential for exposing it is there, but again, it won't be easy. Mainly because few really know about how the system works, and the low percentage of people who come into contact with the trace path for guns.

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From: halfmile
Email: awe62@new.rr.com
Date: Wed, Mar 25, 2009 - 04:14 AM ET
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Every single gun, just about, can be traced. Serial number takes you to the dealer through manufacturer's records, and the dealer has all the 4473's right there.

We had a case where a gun was used in a crime, and it turned out the buyer lied on the form. He testified in court that he had never bought the gun, and lo, his fingerprints were on the form. GUILTY!

Many of the guns have no serial nunmbers, they are copies made in someplace like Afghanistan. I saw it on one of the news programs.

Wayne LaPierre was on Beck the other night, and said much of their armament came in from places like Guatemala and Venequela where there is hardly a government at all. Corrupt military and police are a major source too.

We don'tsell machine guns very easily here, or grenade launchers either. Especially at gun shows, where some pukes claim the Mexican Armament is coming from.

bottome line: Is this a Trojan horse for yet more restrictions on firearms?

You be the judge.

HM

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From: JimmyP
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 2009 - 08:42 AM ET
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If memory serves me correctly, didn't our government outfit the Mexican Government troops with weapons such as automatic rifles and tanks to fight the drug cartel? Didn't we train the guys that took over the cartels? Since when does a U.S. Gun dealer sell tanks? Didn't they use one against our Border Patrol in Arizona somewhere? All this is a ploy to take our guns so Obamy can put his agenda through. Just my 2 cents.

Jimmy

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From: timberfaller
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Date: Wed, Mar 25, 2009 - 09:07 AM ET
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Update! FoxNews just showed the first gun taken at the border: 4 over/under shotguns a couple of handguns and a Thompson Center encore barrel! WOW what a arsenal. FoxNews also had a bleap about the military trainees going over to the cartel to be their strongarms! Go figure!